The Oval Table
The Oval Table

Episode 39 · 2 months ago

Jon Baker - Introverts or Extroverts: Mining The Gold of Distinct Qualities


Introverts or extroverts: Which are more valuable to your business? Author and Leadership Consultant Jon Baker joins us at the Table from Swanage, UK for a far-ranging discussion of how to effectively use introverts in business and how introverts can effectively contribute to business. How do you identify your introverts – there are probably more than you think – and if you are one, how can you make sure your unique skills and talents are recognized? Do you talk to think, or do you think to talk? Both are valuable. Discover how, and which one are you? #introvert #extrovert #values #OvalTable #conference #networking

We also discuss generational differences. What motivates Baby Boomers, Millennials and Gen Z? How are they different? How do their values differ? How do we use that knowledge to supercharge their performance?

Other topics include: How do you best use your time at a Trade Show or Conference, especially introverts? How do you lay the groundwork for a productive decision-making meeting? #introvert #extrovert #values #OvalTable #conference #networking

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I remember back many years ago when I was in corporate life, thinking there was there's some people around that always say, Oh yeah, my network knows this, and in my head I was wrong. But in my head all these people have talked about networking in the business. We're all just trying to climb up the Greasy Pole, and I didn't want anything to do with them, which is wrong. But when I come back and look at it later, I think, yeah, what I needed to do is network in my way, in other words with the people that I could go and were important to me, to make sure that I could do all the same conversations, but apparently differently. That's that's the basis of Ninja networking in a nutshell. Hello everyone, Heim Richie cats, and welcome to the Oval Table, where we discuss all things related to helping those who live and work within your business how to survive, thrive, avoid pitfalls, have more fun and become successful faster. Getting advice and input from someone outside of Your Business can make a big difference, and that's what we seek to do for you each and every week here at the oval table. We believe that every voice matters and we want to model how that works often the advice that makes the difference comes from where you least expect it. We seek every week to provide a lens for a different way to do business. So much more as possible when everyone's ideas make it to the table. Let me introduce you to our co hosts, Doug Bowers and Carl Walsh. Well, welcome to all our listeners to another episode and another round at the oval table. I got a couple of questions for you here. Have you ever had a meeting where nothing was accomplished? Have you had participants which just don't participate? And how about those folks that hang back and don't appear to have anything to say? I've been through so many meetings like that and the results are usually pretty awful. Well, our guest today is John Baker from swanage, England, and driven by his desire to expose the talent of the quieter business people, he has become known for activating introverts with his quietly confident attitude towards challenges and his vision of balanced teams. And you know, that's what we're all about here on the Oval Table, balanced teams, his enthusiasm for action and helping others. John Inspires business leaders to take action. His Business Growth and networking knowledge, he's written three books on the subjects the go to expert Ninja networking and running meetings that make things happen, combine with his leadership experience, allows John to show leaders how to change their habits and get more from their introverts. And you know folks introverts. They're quiet but they're thinking all the time. They're sitting back there, they're thinking, they're absorbing. They have a lot to offer if you can just unlock all that stuff inside them. He's probably the only speaker who believes you don't need to keep your head above water to succeed, because scuba diving fills John's spare time with fun and tight spots. And more about his scuba diving later. John. Welcome to the table. We're so pleased to have you here today. Thanks, Kyle. It's great to be yeah, and first off I gotta ask you, John, do you consider yourself an introvert? Absolutely, yesterday, and I don't have any doubts about that. In fact, I don't say to people I'm an introvert, I say I'm proud to be an introvert because in many places there is what I call an extrovert bias, particularly in Western business culture, where people kind of look down. I think that those quieter ones they're not engaged, they don't they don't want to join in, they're not as good, they're not as thoughtful, they're not as many things. The reality is, as you said earlier, they're thinking, they are engaged and they're not better or worse than extroverts. And that's the whole point about a balanced team. A good team has a range of different thinking processes, a range of different personality types so that it can deal with what the business environment throws at us. And, as we all know, things are changing faster than any time before. So, besides the obvious tell sign of a person who doesn't speak up much, how can you tell that a person just might be an introvert for it, for instance, when you're going through the hiring process, you're trying to staff your team,...

...are there tells that can that can signal to you that this is an introvert? I think it's a great question, and I think it's a great question for a couple of reasons. One is because, as said, we want to try and get more balanced teams but but the other is because of this extrovert bias, we have a situation where many introverts will try and blend in with the background. They'll try and appear like extroverts. They'll try and Oh, yeah, I can do this, and it doesn't mean that they're particularly good at acting in that way, they can. This is like many of the introvert myths. And introvert is not shy. An introvert can go and present, can stand up on stage. It might not be the preference of many of them, but there's there's a number of myths. But because of that they try and hide and act out in many cases as extroverts. The downside to that is they will become de energized far more quickly and you won't get the best from them. That leads somewhere to a situation where, as you just said, maybe it's just before an interview, maybe it's you're you're running a team training day or something, and I've quite often gone in there and you look around the room and you go, Oh, before I go and start working with this team, I'm trying to work out what the different types of personalities might be, and so quite often I'll sit there and say look around the room, around the edges of the room are there's some people that are on the edges. It doesn't mean they are introverted, but it's a little sign when you speak to them and we'll end up talking about the internal processing and external processing, I'm absolutely sure, later. But when you speak to them and ask them a question, do they think to talk or do they talk to think? You can expand on that one for ages. But introverts tend to think to talk and extroverts will tend to talk in order to think. So those are those. A couple of big ones that are offted around influence quite often are inconsistent socializers. That doesn't mean they don't like socializing. It might be ten days now to eleven you go and chat to some people. Yeah, yeah, let's go for a beer at the end of work, and they're just as happy as the extroverts in the room. However, on the other days they might not want to. It could just be as simple as on those particular days that the people energy is low because they've spent a lot of time with people. So inconsistent socializing can be another one. And occasionally there will be more social with close contacts, shall I say, more energized when they're with closer contacts than with people who don't know as well, and you might support that one too. However, you flip it into a team meeting kind of situation and you have exactly the same thing going on. The one who stops and thinks they're they're not as interested, they're not as we want, the people that shouting ideas out and energizing the room and and all that that wonderful stuff. The answer is external processing. The people who talk to think it's just they throw the words back out of their mouths. That's how they are thinking through things. It doesn't make it wrong, all right, it's just different to thinking. Most introverts will stop and try to structure what their answer is going to be so that they've got the most accurate, the most structured, the most easy to consume answer they can possibly give, whereas the extrovert is just doing that worth throwing the words out. And of course, in a team meeting quite often people want that liveliness, if we can call it that. But by when many team meetings go wrong is when the facilitator will lavish praise on those fast thinking extroverts, despite the fact that all they've done is they put out stuff which actually is self contradictory because it's not fully thought that it's their thing. It's like, Oh, the words are out there, I'm going to think it through now and and it is valuable. That can absolutely the people that are throwing the ideas out there, throwing it against the wall to see what sticks, and that is another way that meeting can run and be, in fact, very, very valuable. I think what we're all saying here is don't ignore the quiet ones. Bring them out and often, and you can get into this because you're the expert here, but often you have to invite them to come out, don't you? What what tends to happen is, of course, the in a meeting situation, on the team discussion, the questions posed. Some of the extroverts will fire some monthswers out quickly, as we've just been saying, and the interests might not actually then come out with anything at all, because if that praise is lavaged on the fast thinking extroverts and nobody ever gets around to making a bit of space in the discussion, it's shot... in another direction and we've never got as far as looking at the detail and looking at it in a wider sense. So, as you say, sometimes you've got to do just that. What I often say is you've got to hold back some of the extroverted views in order to invite some of the introverts. In several ways you can do that. It might be as simple as Carl, can I come back to you in a moment, please. Most extroverts are not at all bothered by that because, okay, I'll shut for a minute then I'll carry on, and in doing so you can then allow some of the introverts. And of course, other methods. So we've all probably seen the thing where trainers say write something down on the post it note and you stick it up on the wall. That's actually doing the same thing, except it's it's equalizing this processing. So everyone's processing onto a piece of paper then displaying it, so that can bring in the introverts as well. The same as right, okay, nobody speak for the next two minutes. Right, fifteen things down on a piece of paper and then you work around the room and take them all from but at that point everyone's thought things to you've got a much richer meeting and the introverts get more engaged. As they get more engaged, they become more verbal. Now, from a leadership standpoint, I own a small business and I have this group of people and there's this person who keeps hanging back, fairly new employee, and so my big question is who's more productive? Are The extroverts more productive or are the introverts? The first thing is, I think it depends on any number of things and what you mean by productive. But the answer is that to me that there is nothing that says an introvert is more or less productive than an extra bird, because okay, I will get on and do my job. So and saying like far around the office, Twenty five times, go and stand by the water cool it's thirty times, and I might just got on with the job. However, in doing their way, they might have come up. We've listened to a couple of other people developed a network. So which is which is better known? I can give you both answers. Dog, I know you're sitting over there just just waiting to get in here. Doug is, I think, an introvert. Duck. What do you have to offer? Well, you a me to think about that. Yeah, to think about that at all. Absolutely have some time to think. I have several things. You mentioned people energy versus other energies, work energy or other focuses. How do you sort of manage that an organization where somebody has to say I'm just done with people today, I need to work on somebody else. So I think that the people energy thing is it's my name for it, if you like, and where what happens is introverts, when they spend time with a lot of people, will start to feel de energized, whereas extroverts tend to be energized by spending a lot of time with people. And the flip is true. INTROVERTS will recover their energy by spending time alone, whereas that's kind of like much harder for an extrovert. So how can we balance that out in a work situation? Firstly, I think we've got to think about the way we structure tasks, the way we ask people to work, perhaps the way even we structure the office. In a sense, the open playing office is a well, let's just say, no introvert ever must have invented to the open playing office, whether it's noise and interruptions going on all the time. If we can adapt that and we can have quieter areas if we can adapt the way that we get people to run their tasks so much better. Do you ever want to change an introvert? No, I don't think you're going to an introvert. Yeah, the introvert is the introvert, and why would you try and change them when their strengths are based in their introversion? But we need to a start to work on drawing out those strengths and be we can teach people tactics and we can bring them out in the organization so that they will come out with the stuff. As we were talking about speaking in team meetings. We can teach them to do that. We can teach them to work in slightly different ways so that, overall, they're not kind of, by lunch time, going I can't face anymore. And that could that could just be about the fact that we need to accept that having somebody full on with people all day long is not going to be the best thing possible. We need to go okay, let's have a short break. Another situation we have going on currently is that we have different generations and the baby boomers and the millennials are substantially different, not better or worse, they're just different. How do you try and work that problem in? I think that's interesting. So the first thing I will and just say...

I've seen no evidence that there are. The mix of introvert Extroverti is different across those those generations. Um, so that's the first one to park down. But then I think we've got to think again about the strengths that each of these these people bringing it. I was working with a group today and we were talking very much about Jen z and the fact that they will much more values driven and much more want to they're looking for both, for if they're going to stay at a workplace, it's got to align with their values and it's got to have good values. If they're going to buy from a particular supplier, they're looking much more interested in the values. So we've got to start looking at in that case and bearing in mind that within I think it's five years, what the workforce is going to be Gen Z, we've got to go okay, start structuring things so that that comes through and I think we've got to look at the key points of each generation and go how do we use that and what do we do with them? That the manmable say I need ex part in order to keep our production line moving, get me ex part quickly, on time and in quantity and price and all those other considerations. You're saying that the GEN Z peop will say no, wait a minute, I don't want to buy from this gay because I don't like his attitude about whatever much more so. Yeah, okay, that's a substantial conflict. MM HMM, especially if we're short on time. Yes, yes, it makes it hard when we're short on time, but I think that's not to say, you know, if I'm employed, let's say, and I am in Gen Z, I'm still going to do a damn good job, I'm still going to work hard. But if I joined the organization and a little while later I find that the values that I thought the culture I thought was in that organization or not, I'm going to go. So it's not that I'm not going to say right, yes, here's that part, let's deliver that part, let's work on that part. It's not that I don't want to do that, but I am much more driven by by values. Soft of that group is the value of the organization they belong to. More important. are important that that's really the primary importance that they placed on values, and everything else is, you know, sort of allowable. I mean not going to deal with somebody who's always a crook and stealing. I think I think what we're saying is that, yes, there are things like crooks and people that will still that. I don't think there's any generation that are going to accept that. All I'm saying is that Gen Z are much more driven by the internal culture and the values in the organization than some of the other generations. And simple things like there's one organization I was working in about about six years ago and I had the conversation with the guy about values and he was talking about the values and he said that we know our values and we even put them on big signs in the office. This is going to be interesting, and you walk down the office and there's big, big, a one poster boards nicely made up. Here are our five values. The five values for us this year are nobody had ever stopped and talked to the organization about what that meant and they were just meant to read it and suddenly believe it. And there was two interesting things about this. One is that clearly doesn't work but the other one was that there was three things they had to do in this year and point number three was the customer is number one, which just seems a little bit interrupted to me. Shall all we say the customer's number one. That's the third value we have. Yeah, okay, but as opposed to some other firms were worked out where they've they've talked about the values, not incessantly, but in each team meeting somebody will be asked to share and nominate another half member. That's going to be if you like, it's a twist on employee of the week kind of thing. They'll be asked a nominated team member and say which are the values they embody, and the advantage of this is, of course, a good thing about it is you're getting peer recognition. So that's cool, and so it's nominated me. That's that's lovely, and introverts love that as much as extroverts anyone that's going to be liked to be praised, as long as there's a reason. Many introverts, if you just say Oh, good job, cut on the head kind of thing, not interested. But if you said I like the way you did this because of that, that's great and that develops internal confidence. So peer recognition is great. But the other thing, coming back to the values, is rather than this, well, there's a sign on the wall. Everybody's thinking about these all the time. So it's a great way of embodying the values throughout the company. You wrote a book about Ninja Networking. Yep. So is this something that introverts can learn from on how... Because I have often been in that situation. I mean, get get me into a big multi day conference and it takes me two days to warm up to where I'll talk to people, introduce myself, talk to them, which is a real waste of two days. Does Ninja networking help introverts get going, get off the starting line and dive in? So yes and no is my answer to that one, because I think that the point that I tried to make is top, top level. Point is one of the great strengths of introversies. Brilliant listeners and they are very, very people focused when they're in a small group of people that they know and trust. Put them in a conference and their energy is going to lead away quickly, as we just said already. They're going to be very conscious of the internal processing things. So it's like, Oh, and they can see the negatives for that. So that just exacerbates the exhaustion. Hence why it takes a long time to get going and by the time it gets going, either the conference has ended or I'm just exhausted. I'm going to have to go home. So it's not the best way for networking for an introvert. When we have got to do that as introverts, it's about making sure that you give yourself space and time. But sometimes recover simplest whatever, not always as practical as it might be. But if I go the first big conference of the P S age, that speaking association in the UK I went to, I had got three days with all these speakers chatting away, I've got to say on the day after that I was about as much use as a chocolate teapot. However, I hadn't thought about it. I just booked in a day with clients and this was a bit bad news. I was just absolutely wiped out. So what do I do now? Whenever it's practical, I'll go right the day after the conference. I'm going to make sure I've got a recovery day. I can't always do that, of course. What can we do in the middle of the conference? Sometimes it's as simple as just going right scan through the agenda. I'm not going to that part of it. I'm going to do something to recover in that part of it, which so it's it can help in the conference. But the main thing I talk about is use networking differently. Networking doesn't just happen in big conference it doesn't happen at networking meetings and I don't know if you guys have business meetings and chamber meetings, etcetera in the US, but we certainly did have a lot of that here and they can be great places to meet people. But you know what, a far better approach, certainly for an introvert, is to sit and say, right who are the most important people that are going to help me to achieve my networking goal, and think of who their names are, and I always say people, five, five or ten people. Just name them. Do yourself a relationship audit with them, as in, where is the relationship and what do I have to do to improve that on a one to one basis, and that might be as simple as I make sure I ring Carl up every week or every couple of weeks. Or we ranger at one to one every month, whatever it is, but focusing on a one to one basis is a better way for an introvert to do it, because many introverts are told the rubbish at networking. I remember back many years ago when I was in corporate life, thinking there was there's some people around that always say, Oh, yeah, my network knows this, and in my head I was wrong. But in my head all these people that talked about networking in the business, we're all just trying to climb up the greasy pole and I didn't want anything to do with them, which is wrong. But when I come back and look at it later, I think, yeah, what I needed to do is network in my way, in other words with the people that I could go and were important to me and make sure a lot I could do all the same conversations, but very differently. That's that's the basis of Ninja networking in a nutshell, because it's about and the Ninja pieces about being really effective, like an injury is, but quietly like a Ninja. So it's being good at targeting your networking exactly, know exactly where you want to go and why. Absolutely very good. And then do it to your strengths. Excellent, okay. One of our principles, just exactly with that, is is one of our profiles is stand. It's kind of interesting. We have three stands. You're talking to each other, we're actually completing sentences. I mean fairly usual, since we tend to don't need to do that, but you're you're explaining why when I go to a tax update conference every year and you're the sitting there for eight hours of Bang, Bang,...

Bang Bang, by the end of the day you're just man, when the heck am I doing? I'm just gone. I mean they don't have any the energy. That continued off. MM HMM. Absolutely, man. It's good information, but mayah worn out. I often, I often joke about it, and I was doing a presentation the other night and we were talking around this subject and I said, and people don't get it at first and then they realized what I mean. I said conference centers nowadays understand introverts. They've got special rooms for introverts to go and recover their energy. They're quite small, only one person at a time can get in there and there's a door with a lock on the inside and it's got a chair where you can sit. I'm never sure why the chair has got a hole in the middle and where there's a button that makes a water fountain, but you can recovered there and I got there. Yeah, yeah, I was wondering. I've never seen one of these. And you've got there. But the point is that we've got to find ways. And yes, that's that's an emergency. It's like, you know what, I've just got to recover for my energy for five minutes. Then at least I can limp onto a lunch time or whatever it might be. But we've got to give ourselves a space and often talk about the gift of time, and really that's what we're talking about that. Yeah, I think actually, if you're at a conference, it pays to have a room, either in the hotel, if it's being held in a hotel conference center, or very nearby so that you can make that escape every every once in a while. It's it's just time to get out and clear your head and plan the rest of the day. And I will. I will often go right, okay, I'm I'm going for a walk and might only be ten minutes, but I'll get outside. It's quiet, it's peaceful and with nature. And sometimes not every time, but sometimes I'll get somebody to come on the walk with me. So it's not even wasted time, but just because it's one to one gentle look conversation I can recovers managing right very good. So you really need, if you're an introvert, you really need to think ahead about what you're gonna do at a conference and say I have some primary objectives. There is just a great deal of commotion going on. If you're going booth to booth, for example, and that has a product demonstration area, and you can say, you know, there's just a lot of stuff here that doesn't relate to me. That is not it is not my primary goal, but there are a couple of things that are. So I needed to zero focus in on those and then, if I still have the time and the energy, I can, I can look at some other things, but I need to get my primary things done. I think that's a pretty smart way of going about it. I wish I knew that before, but yeah, I know. How much time have have I wasted at conferences? How much time probably most people have wasted at at conferences? Actually, these are great rules for everybody, for everybody, whether whether you're an introvert or not. This is a great way to to attend a conference. I attend the N S A, which is the P s a of the US, and this conference it's four or five days and every hour there's about twelve breakout rooms with very important speakers, and then, of course you have the evening hours where you can do your networking and they have events that go on at night to facilitate that networking. And I can think of maybe I use half my time usefully, but I know after today I will be using my time so much better at a conference. It sounds really perverse, but you know, talking about the the N S A or the P S A, it's a type of confidence we share. So I've discovered over the last ten years that almost to the point where the first few I try and do everything, and the last one I went to, I think I attended to sessions and that was it, and the less I attend the more I get from it. Exactly. We always try to do everything. You're drinking from a fire hose, you're retaining nothing. It's just a madhouse. Yeah, absolutely, that's that, and I'm sure it's the same at trade shows. Now to change gears just a little bit, let's just deal with the fact that a lot of meetings are being held online now. MM HMM. So how do you run a meeting effectively online and what is the difference between the face to face meeting and the online meeting? Is there a difference? The first thing, I think, is so many of the let's call it basic hygiene factors. No, there's no difference. So if you want... effective meeting, that's going to include and drawing introverts with the internal processing as well. Let's let's put another way. First of all, any good meeting is there for a purpose. So it's probably going to be some decision making. If you're not deciding something with the brains you've got in the meeting, I often wonder what the point of the meeting is. But so, if you're gonna have some decision making, first of all get the agenda and supporting data out beforehand, and I don't mean five minutes before the meeting, I mean a week before. People often say, John, I don't have the time to do that. Well, it takes the same amount of time to get those that information together five minutes before or a week before now. The reason that we do that and talk about this is because those people who are going to process the stuff internally can now do so. But if you present it to them all the all the stuff up on the screen and then start talking, you're going to get the same old, same old. You're going to get extravert jumping in all the time you get and get introverts trying to process the data, trying to listen to what people are saying and saying nothing and disengaging. So getting the data out beforehand helps it also, and I've seen it happen, where even some of those external processing extroverts that left to wing it, they actually read the stuff too. Not all of them, but some of them. So the first thing is a gender and data and I think that's absolutely critical. The second thing, when I think about hygiene, is get everybody to contribute in some ways as early on as possible in the meeting, so that everybody has engaged somehow, whether that's the simple thing of hi, I'm John, I this and I don't think that's a great way of doing it, but everybody has said something, but you make it clear and you give them all space to do that. So we're going to walk around the thought. We're going to go around the table or we're going to go around the zoom, and I'm going to ask each of you to answer this quite and make it a relevant question to the subject of the meeting. I always suggest starting with the energizing extroverts, because then that lifts the energy up and you come back to the introverts and they're then ready to answer because they've done the internal process and as well. But I structuring it that way, everybody's joining in and I think that's even more important on zoom because from a actually one of you guys might tell me this better than I from a technical point of view, because the way the microphones and the headset works there's a little pause. So if I'm always the one that's talking, it's harder for you to actually cut in. So we need to actually recognize that and we need to put those those breaks in there and get everybody to to speak, and I think those are the beginning pieces. Then accepting the fact that actually it's more tiring to keep staring at this square. It's just as tiring, if not more so, than sitting in a room with people. So don't think. I think that's quite an interesting concept, that you get the agenda out ahead of time and if there's any kind of information that people need to review, first give them a chance by including that in the agenda. And then I'm wondering if, if you can't, then also suggest that we're going to have, let's say we're gonna have seven people around the table Um and we're gonna ask each of you these questions or ask we'd like Uh Scotty to report on this, we want Tracy report on this, and so they know they have got a shot coming up and they know they can prepare for it. So they're not gonna win it and they're gonna have done. They're thinking ahead of time. So you're going to be pulling out of these people their skill set. Yeah, I think that that's a very interesting concept because I've been in meetings where, you know, we're a sales meeting and we never talked about sales and two out, what are we doing here? You know this is don't waste the time. I mean I was in a meeting where the president with would finish his meal, push his chairback and start playing solids there on his phone and he was absolutely then I said I was going to do solid there. But yeah, if, if you've got people in the meeting that have got nothing to add, you end up saying what, what are they doing in that meeting? Yeah, yeah, yeah, why are you wasting their time? So invite the people that are most relevant in the meeting are those who have got some skin in the game, to put it like that. Well, those got the right information and they're going to be involved in taking and implementing that decision. Should you ever try and change a person? And you get the big concept, introvert, extrovert, but then we can break it down into our profile system of more aspects. But do you ever want to try and change a person or do you on instead try and make it easy for them to come out of their shall...

...and provide their value? That's what I was going to say. I mean I was going to say putting your effort into changing somebody on. We could debate for ages whether that's actually possible. So let's put that one to one side. But that's going to be harder than helping them to build on their own strengths. Why do we try and change change somebody completely? Why don't we just build on the strengths that they've got, help them to build on that and perhaps give them some tactics which they could use for the other stuff. Why don't we look at the way the seam compliments each other so that we're using different people for different aspects? Well the game. We've all got to be the same, which is just leads to group think. And that gets us to the acorn principle, which we dealt with with Jim Cath Kart just a few episodes ago. It is a vitally important aspect that you are who you are and he is who he is, she is who she is, and the point to get the best out of them is to cater to their strengths and not try to turn them into something they're not, and keep that in mind and your hiring process as well, and that is a foundational principle in our profiling system that we focus on the strengths of the individuals. We don't even care what the negatives are. Just focus on the strengths. Bring the strengths and you're gonna have so much more powering your organization than you but otherwise, my final question here for you, John, is in your scuba diving and funny say, I can talk about for hours. So can I. I was a scuba diver as well. What is the most important business and life lesson that you have learned while scuba diving, because we all get into some interesting spots down there. Uh, tell us about one. Okay, one of the yeah, there's several. I'M gonna I'M gonna draw back on one that I learned many, many years ago. It was one of my first scene dives, if I can put it like that, where as opposed to people, people listening might not get the difference, but if you're out in the open ocean, things move, things are not quite the same as they are in a in a lake, where everything is the same. So when the first seed some signals went wrong, there was all sort of confusion and I had stayed at the bottom until way past when I should have done and by the time we had got up to near the surface, I had got to hang around five meters, or whatever that is in in the US, fifteen fift ish, below the surface, in order to allow the nitrogen in my body to get out. If I didn't do that, I would get a free helicopter ride pay for it by an insurance company to the local hospital and I would be stuck in a box in the local hospital for three days. So here I am, I've got to stay, stay there for seven minutes. Two minutes later I'm runna are M hm, and at that point of course I'm going what's urgent is to get up there. Every find when my body's going urgent, get up, get up to the surface of the water. Of course, the difference is Um what's important, important as I stay where I am. And so I come back to this this time management one where if it's if it's urgent, you can probably delegate it. And so what I ended up doing was delegating the provision of air to my body, because there was somebody with me who I could borrow that air. I delegated exactly, and that's a great example. And Scuba diving it's a life and death issue. You don't do anything alone. No, you have a team, because when you're out of there and you're sixty ft down, you're indeed trouble, and that's when you start sharing the regular later and sharing the air. I had a situation. It was all on the same day and I learned about calmness in when you're in jeopardy and confidence. And this was one of my first dives. I was going through this rock form formation that that had interesting little passageways through it and all that, and I was in what was actually an arch, very small arch, and I got halfway through and I got stuck and I'm thinking, Oh boy, and of course the adrenaline starts rising and you see and the panic starts rising. But I remembered what I what I was told in training, which is remove your gear, because that's what stuck. You're not stuck. Your gear is undo your gear, get rid of the tanks, free yourself and then you...

...can pull your tanks out, put them back on and you can have the regulator in your mouth. You're breathing the whole time. John, we have loved having you on the show. I hope our listeners have learned as much as we have. I know I've learned a tremendous amount and I'm gonna start putting that to use. John, please tell us how people can contact you and where they can get your books. Okay, so easiest places on the Internet, which simple introverts in business, or one word dot co, dot UK Um, there you'll be able to get the books. The books will sell on Amazon, but there will be named on that website and contact details. Contact Pol. Love to meet you that. Oh, find me on Linkedin. Very good and our listeners. You can ask John Questions there or or if you don't want to do it that way, please send your questions through us at oval table team at Gmail Dot Com. That's oval table team at GMAIL DOT com. Be Brilliant. Thank you, guys. Really enjoyed the discussion. If you're enjoying this podcast, wait till you get your hands on Doug's book. We Are Alpha dogs, available on Amazon and wherever books, e books and audio books are sold. Go to we are Alpha Dogs Dot Com for bonuses and downloads to help you and your company become legendary. And, if you are especially adventurous while you're at it, take the dog quiz and find out more about who you really are. There a couple of points that we covered in this interview with John that we've touched on before and the two that really stood out for me. First of all, you can't change who people are. If they're an introvert, there they're an introvert. If they're an extrovert, they're an extra. That doesn't mean that you can't recognize that that's what you are and make some efforts. For instance, for the introvert, with some support, they could come out a little bit and share their ideas, because you want their ideas, you want the information and the knowledge and the experience that they have. And for the extrovert, maybe you can start trying to listen a little harder and if there is that kind of knowing who you are, knowing the skills that you have and trying to move a little bit towards the center, that can improve. I think both sides very, very nicely. And as far as the fact that you can't change somebody, that goes directly back to Jim Cathcart and our episode with him and his acorn principle. You know, and Acorn is not going to become a fruit tree, but it can become one heck of a tree all by itself by becoming the tree it's supposed to be. And people are exactly the same way now. The other thing that I thought was really valuable, and I was able to apply it to myself, I know you were able to apply it to yourself, is his whole discussion on what to do at a conference, what to do at a trade show, how to not be overwhelmed by it, because they tend to load these things up. We discussed the N S A conference, and that thing is so loaded with information. You know, the best thing to do is take it easy, attend the ones that are really important to you. Most conferences will allow you to purchase online videos of the entire conference so you can then, at your leisure after the conference, go and watch the sessions that you didn't see that you might be interested in, and that, I think, is a really good use of your time and a pretty darned good use of your money. I know every everybody thinks, oh, it's costing me this much money to attend this conference or trade show, I gotta get everything I possibly can. I got to get my money's worth, and that's part of the impetus driving you to do it poorly. I also find these things just incredibly tiring. Oh yes, they absolutely, and it's drinking from a fire hose. You know, how how much of the information can you get? So, if you're going to a conference that does offer a video package, Oh that's the great way to do it. That was towards the end of the interview and I really recommend our listeners, if you're going to a conference sometime in the near future, go back and listen to that part of the interview. I think that was really, really important and really useful. anothering I found, as the developer of the profiles, interesting is that we had three introverts sitting around the table...

...and we were actually using complete sentences. Yeah, only unusual because we usually talk enough sentences because you know what the other guys are gonna say. Well, we might have reps done that for the benefit of the listeners. But one thing he said is you get the most out of the introverts is if you give them a chance to process the information, allow them to be themselves. And as an introvert, I mean I think that's tremendously valuable. But on the other hand, extroverts tend to speak to think that we are thinking out loud rather than thinking internally. And if you're dealing with ex inverts and don't get excited about what they say, good or bad, until the information has been processed first, and I think that's a significant thing. Well, as as an introvert, you tendn't want to clamp down on the extrovert, but actually what they're doing is thinking out loud. You need to understand that and if you do UN then that will help a great deal. A lot can come out of that sort of verbal stream of consciousness is as long as somebody's listening and picking through what's coming out of their mouth. Realize that it's not conclusions, it's not statements effect necessarily, but it's ideas that stimulate the ideas of other people exactly, and in that I think there's tremendous benefit, which is one of the principles of the old table is to allow that kind of thing to go on. One other thing I said that I thought was really important was set up your meeting agendas and give them out in advance. Tell people what they're they're going to be asked of them, what they're gonna be reporting on, and give them a chance to prepare that information. It saves a lot of conflict, that saves a lot of internal turmoil on the part of introverts. was like extroverts er the care, but introverts do care a lot, and so give them time to process and get ready, and I think that will help your meeting. And the other thing I would do is be sure you've signed someone in each meeting and bring blaze down. It's because, I mean, that's a that's essential. That's essential. Well, cater to people's strengths. I mean I think that's really important thing to do is is to focus. Well, the profiles essentially do that. We highlight the positives and we don't really focus too much on negatives and focus on that. Focus on what they can bring in terms of their strength areas. Don't ask somebody to do something that that that's not their area exactly. Don't put an introvert in an extroverted job because it's not going to get anything done. Okay, they can probably do it, but they're not going to do it really well. Yeah, I mean a perfect example when I was on the sales floor. I'm not real big at going out and coloring people and giving them my sales pitch. I'm really good. If people come to me, though, and say what should I do? Ah, you know, then I'm great. I can point people towards what they actually need and they feel good, they get value. I feel good because I help somebody, but I'm not that outgoing salesperson who can just walk up to somebody and start selling. Now when they ask you, it's it's sort of like game on. Yeah, absolutely, but that that does present uh, an interesting management approach that if you're going to talk to somebody as a vendor or whatever, wherever you're meeting this person, and you see that they're an introvert, if you would ask them if they could help you or ask them a technical issue or something they would know something about and let them open up to it, then you're gonna be sort of equally footed with that. Oh yeah, that's amazing how I can be if you open the door to them. It is, it really is. And again that just goes back to play to people's strengths. Let them do what they do well, don't force them to do something that they don't do well, and everything is going to be at high efficiency. Hi, this is Carl Walsh, Co host of the Oval Table podcast. We appreciate your interest in our shows, so please send any comments, suggestions or questions to oval table team at Gmail Dot Com. We value opening a dialogue with our listeners, also in order to keep us able to bring in the high caliber guests you've become accustomed to. Please be sure to subscribe. Like comment and share episodes with friends, Annisos Ens. we all hope... have a productive and inspirational week. I'm Rishie cats and we will see you next time at the oval table.

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